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Swarm cells

  • 16 May 2020 8:20 PM
    Message # 8974121

    Hi- I'm a new beekeeper

    Got a nuc this spring. Put it in 8 frame box with pollen patty and 1:1 in top feeder.  About two weeks ago I put a 2nd box on. Seemed like there were a lot of bees.  Today I went in to check the progress. A little nectar and comb built out on only one frame in the center of top box. Took a peek below at a undrawn frame I had put in between two old frames below. Wanted to see the progress. It has what looks like queen cells to me. There were about 6-8 of them and maybe two of them were closed up. Did I not get the top box on in time and they felt crowded? The Q cells are not hanging off the bottom like I've read swarm cells are supposed to, but they are hanging off the bottom of the comb they've built on that new frame thus far. See photos below.

    It did not seem like there were less bees in there than other times, so I don't think they've swarmed yet. But there has been lots of extra activity in the front. I assumed there was some robbing attempts going on so I've mostly had the entrance on the smallest hole. 

    Comments? Suggestions? Anything to do or just let it play out? I do have swarm boxes baited in another side yard.  I'm pretty bummed. Won't this set the hive back a lot? I'm reading bee books everyday to learn (by Sammataro and Flottum) but there is nothing like seeing it play out in your own yard. 

    Thanks!

    2 files
    Last modified: 17 May 2020 8:38 AM | Anonymous member
    Moved from General Bee Topics: 8 Feb 2021 11:25 AM
  • 18 May 2020 12:00 PM
    Reply # 8977647 on 8974121

    Hi Jerilee,

    I think you'r experiencing a supercedure of your queen which was there just long enough to lay a few eggs and the workers just jumped at the chance to replacer her.  Certainly not unheard of in a nuc, with a new unrelated queen, that may not have been ready to do the job that the colony needed from her.  At this point just let it play out and there is a good chance in 2 to 3 weeks you will have a new and improved queen for your colony happily laying eggs and building up

  • 18 May 2020 8:06 PM
    Reply # 8978358 on 8974121
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Hi there,

    Are you inspecting for eggs, larvae and brood?  Queen cells on the face of the comb MAY be supersedure cells, suggesting you may have a failing or missing queen: https://www.google.com/search?q=supersedure+cells&oq=supercedure&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l7.6542j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


  • 14 Jun 2020 9:44 PM
    Reply # 9037507 on 8974121

    So I've been checking on this hive every few weeks, waiting to see eggs or a queen from those queen cells. The queen cells disappeared slowly and still no eggs. I even gave them some comb with new eggs from my other hive to see if they wanted to make another queen. But nothing happened on that frame. Went in today one last time hoping to see eggs and I saw a few larva scattered randomly on maybe two or three frames. They look like to me to be drone cells randomly where the worker cells should be. They looked raised up, not flat. Now I'm a new beekeeper so I'm not sure, but from what I can see and comparing it to the info and pictures in the books it seems to me like these are probably laying workers raising drones. I couldn't see tiny eggs so didn't see if there where multiple eggs in a cell. Also I looked twice through the 4-5 frames very thoroughly for a queen and didn't see her. Do you think I could have a hopelessly queenless colony? Other thoughts? 

    I do have one other healthy colony next to this one. Could I combine them in a way that would not endanger that queen? Newspaper method? Or should I shake the bees off and just give the good comb to that healthy hive to give them a boost? 

    Thank you for any help!

    Last modified: 15 Jun 2020 10:15 AM | Anonymous member
  • 15 Jun 2020 6:39 PM
    Reply # 9039567 on 8974121
    Anonymous

    As you describe brood in the frames it is the classic look of a hive with laying workers.  It is nearly impossible to save the hive.  You can try to combine with another hive.  I recommend taking the hive away from it's current location, if possible several hundred feet and shake all the bee on the ground and bush the rest off the frames an put these frame in a covered box.  The bees will return to the hive location but with no hive after an evening they will be gone.  Some will join your other hive(s) and some will be lost.   If you have empty frames in other hives you can switch them with the drawn frame otherwise store the frame in a well covered box.  If possible put them in a freezer ever several weeks to prevent wax moth.

  • 16 Jun 2020 2:26 PM
    Reply # 9041532 on 8974121
    Anonymous

    Your June 14 post is the classic description of a laying worker situations.  Frames with few larvae scattered randomly on frames with scattered domed capped brood.   Your June 16 photo are classic emergency queen cell.  If they are newly capped queen cells it will take about 15-21 days for there to be a new laying queen.  If the capped queen cell were seen 2-3 weeks ago then there should be a new queen in the hive.  If a new queen do not mate within 2-3 weeks then they start laying unfertilized eggs, with is equivalent to a laying worker.   For queens to mate it need to be warm, generally 70 or higher. I would not destroy this hive now, wait 3-4 weeks and if there is a new fertilized queen you should be seeing normal brood development.   Your June 14 description make me thing you have a laying worker but the June 16 pictures create uncertainty in that opinion.  Give us follow up in 3-4 weeks.

  • 17 Jun 2020 8:07 AM
    Reply # 9042860 on 8974121

    Thanks for the info. I went ahead and shook all the bees off this morning. Then I was able to really examine the comb. All the scattered brood was being capped like drones and there were lots of cells with  more than one egg in it. So that should confirm that it was a laying worker right? The swarm cells were from over a month ago, May 16. So if I was going to have a queen she should have be getting going by now.  Anyways, as I said I already shook the bees off a football field or two away. I'm excited to give the built out comb with pollen and honey to my other hive. How should I prepare that before giving it to them? Freeze it for a day to kill drone larva? Should I scrape off the drone caps? And is there any particular spot I should put these new frames in the hive? Should I replace them with the combs on the outer edge that aren't built up yet? Thanks

    Last modified: 17 Jun 2020 8:09 AM | Anonymous member
  • 17 Jun 2020 8:20 AM
    Reply # 9042912 on 8974121

    One additional comment about a laying worker colony is that they (workers) have shorter abdomens that don't reach all the way to the bottom of the cells so their multiple eggs tend to be on the sides of the cells rather than sitting by themselves upright on the bottom of a cell as a good queen will do


    James Hagerman

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